Betrayal happens to all of us, and it happens in small and large doses. It definitely happens in many different forms. There are the big betrayals that are obvious and flagrant, and then there’s the small little baby betrayals that go on all the time. Big or small, all of them hurt. And when it happens, it can make you feel out of control and powerless. As everything that happens in life, realize that betrayal is part of the human condition. Learn some tips and tricks on how to face it, work with it, and hopefully handle it better.
This show is about an experience I’m having around betrayal, about believing that someone who I considered a friend, a business partner could turn their back, shut me out, and all the feelings that arose around it. It’s been an interesting painful week, but the life lessons that have arisen have been truly amazing. The second piece is we bring on my friends from Austin, Megan and Brave, who are coaches and teachers around circling and authentic relating, and they give their viewpoints and share their stories about how they deal with betrayal. Their own betrayal and also how they teach their clients how to deal with theirs.
Listen to the podcast here:
Coping with BETRAYAL
We’re here talking about the issues, talking about things that matter, talk about things going on in my life that I’m learning and seeing, and hopefully my lessons and how I perceive them can add to your life. It is about this process of learning and being true and exploring and finding yourself in today’s world and it’s tough. It’s a tough world out there and it’s not getting any easier. That’s the point. It’s getting to a point where things are getting more and more challenging. The goal of this show is to give you the opportunity to hear some life lessons of things I see and hopefully integrate them into your life. This is a concept of betrayal and I’m sure almost everyone in our audience can definitely touch this feeling of betrayal because it happens to all of us.
It happens in small and large doses. This is a thing I’ve been thinking about and learning and listening is that betrayal definitely happens in many different forms. There are the big betrayals that are obvious and flagrant, and then there’s the small little baby betrayals that go on all the time and all of them hurt. It just hurts. There’s no other way to put it. It’s a feeling of out of control and that’s the thing that I’ve been feeling. Out of control in terms of this betrayal, I feel powerless and the powerless itself is almost as angstful and negative feeling as the actual stimuli of the betrayal. I want to acknowledge that if you have betrayal in your life, if this is something that’s been going for you, know that is part of the human condition and this show is hopefully going to give you some tips and tricks on how to work with it, interface with it and believe in it. From that will hopefully give some space for you to be better with it.
The first thing I want to talk about is I got a few notes from people, friends who know me and they asked if this betrayal was about my old company OneTaste. I just want to say for the record, absolutely not. This has nothing to do with OneTaste. OneTaste has treated me extremely well, Joanna VanVleck, Nicole Daedone, the crew. This has absolutely nothing to do with OneTaste. If there’s any confusion about that, just end it now. They’ve been great to me. What happened was I started a second company with a friend of mine and her husband and another fellow. I don’t want to give too much of the details of what happened in that business experience because one, it’s probably legally not smart for me to mention and two, it’s not even that important. This show is not much about the stimuli of what happened, the experience of it but how I respond to it.
I want to get that across is that we always have an opportunity to deal with stimuli. We have choice. That’s important for us to remember is that we’re not a victim to our circumstance. We always have choice on how we respond to the stimuli. There’s always that 1% or 0.5% of the time that we’re out of control. There are certain countries where you don’t have control. There are certain experiences where someone takes you prisoner, you don’t have control. There are certain areas and this talk is not about that extreme, which I feel bad about, but this talk is about the other 99% of the time where we have a stimuli occur and then we have the possibility, the option of response.
There is a podcast I did called It’s Not the Circumstances, It’s You. You do have the ability to control how you respond to the stimuli, but I will give some details. The bottom line is we had a business. The business started 2015. It died or fell over in late 2016, and then what happened was that we had a very calm, clear conversation in December and January about how to close the business. There are some debts and some things to handle. I said I would handle this piece. They said they would handle that piece. It was very, warm and engaging and we sent emails back and forth about my life and their life and it was very equitable.
All of a sudden there was a point where they stopped communicating. The second thing is they hired a lawyer. What happened is the lawyer started talking to me and I was like, “I can spend a lot of time spending your money and spending your time, but I would love to have a conversation with my two business partners so we can see we’re on the same page and that we can hand you a list of things to do to be efficient.” It was all about efficient with the lawyer instead of spending all this time, let’s have a conversation and get clear. What happened was they basically said, “They don’t want to talk to me under no circumstance.” They totally shut me out and I pushed the point. I emailed them and text them and went through a friend and they basically said, “Stop begging to talk to us. We want you to only deal with the lawyer.”
From there I knew what the case was. I knew what the situation was, that they had lawyered up. They had created the chasm and from now I have to deal with a lawyer, who is very nice and professional, but I felt this sense of pain and angst. I’ve been feeling a horrible feeling of betrayal and this feeling of betrayal goes down to my toes. It is like all-encompassing. There are certain people who can take feelings and put them in compartments, I’m not that person. When I have a feeling, it’s an all-body experience; I’m 100% into my feelings. I can probably say that I don’t have the huge range of feelings a lot of people do, but when I have a feeling it is everywhere, it takes on everything.
What happens there is that it affects my health and affects my sleep and affects my relating because I’m fully in the feeling. That’s how this betrayal has hit. It has hit every aspect of my body and what the effect it’s had on me is that it’s affected my trust in others. It’s affected my own sense of safety. It had me feel like an asshole because I trusted them. I felt like I was special in some way. Now they’ve had a history of cutting relationships in the past and I’ve been party to some of them and they’ve all been pretty fair, but I thought that I was special and this is a big piece of betrayal. “How could this happen to me because I’m me? Because I’ve given so much to them, how can they do this to me?” That part is the part that stung because I had this viewpoint, this thought that I was special and for some reason I was going to get away from this issue, but I’m not that special. What happened was I’m in the same boat as everyone else and from that I feel this sense of betrayal. Coming back to the process, stimuli occurred, “We don’t want to talk to you, talk to our lawyer.” Betrayal hits, then the question is what do I do with that feeling?
That’s the title of this show. It’s called Coping with Betrayal. I’m going to speak about that and then we’re going to change a little format and Megan and Brave from Austin are going to come in and talk about their methods with dealing with betrayal and how they educate their clients and talk about their methods and methodologies on how to deal with betrayal. You’re going to get two different viewpoints. I’m going to give you my methodologies for coping and then Megan, Brave and I are going to have a conversation about their methods of coping and from that we’re going to hopefully give you some tips and tricks on how to deal with your betrayal.
This is Rob Kandell’s version of how to deal with betrayal. The first thing is, when you feel that sense of betrayal, the first thing is to feel the extent of the feelings. Go down and feel it. Feel every aspect of it. This is a step that a lot of people don’t take. They try to bypass the feelings. They try to avoid the feelings. What they do is they cope. You’ll go to a drink, you go to a gambling, you go to a drug, and you’ll numb your feelings. This is the most detrimental piece. If you’re in a sense in a situation where you’re being betrayed by someone, feel the extent of your feelings and process it. I went to my therapist. The man is awesome and we talked about the extent of all the feelings. He doesn’t give much advice and how to handle it past that. His job and why I hired him for is to feel all the feelings. Feel all those things that are going on inside of you, because if you don’t they’re going to control you from the outside.
Once you’ve felt the extent of your feelings, then do the inventory of how you co-created the situation. Look at where you were a party to creating this situation. For me and my business partners, I knew on some level that they had this innate ability to do it. I witnessed it and now we’re business partners for going on two years and I saw them do it for other people. It was my blindness. It was my arrogance that had me think I was special and different and that’s how some of the betrayal occurred is because I didn’t take the time to say, “This could happen.” I didn’t do the groundwork with them to say, “Please don’t bail on me.” From that, I bypassed this huge information download that was available to me by not looking at it.
Look at how you co-created the response, that situation. Dig in and find out what are the details that you had to have you feel betrayed, because I can tell you for me, I’m a party to this. I’m not an innocent bystander. It may look legally from the outside. It may seem that they’re doing this to me, but no. I was a party to this field. Where did I co-create the situation? Once you’ve done those first steps, and I can tell you those first two steps might take a month, don’t rush them. Spend your time and feel the feelings and look at the co-creation, then look at what is the life lesson that you need to learn from the situation. That’s the biggest thing that I got in therapy, but I did a process called EMDR. What it does is I put these little headphones on. I have these little knobs on my hand. They’ll sound frequency left and right, and my brain goes into a trance.
For those who have done plant medicine or you go deep down into yourself, legally, back and forth, back and forth, and he’s taking me deep into my mind. He’s taking me deep into different levels and asking me questions in the trance state and I came up with this thing that hit me. The thing that hit me was that I know my entire life that I’ve had integrity and character. I’ve been a person when I show up for a business, when I show up for a workshop, when I show up for a podcast, when I show for anything, it is with my full integrity and character and I’m going to do my best to do everything to show up.
I never believed that I had the words, the marketing, the skill set to communicate my purpose. While I could demonstrate it to myself and perhaps to others, I never believe that I had the words or the ability to speak my purpose. My entire life, I’m going on 47 years old, the first 46.95 years of my life, I’ve lived in a place where I thought I needed someone else to be the words. I had to live in my father’s words. I had to live with my first business partner’s words, Nicole’s words that were brilliant and beautiful, but I had to live in her words, and then I had to live in my last business partner’s words. I didn’t believe that I had the skill set to speak what my purpose is. What I found out is I do. I do have the words. This betrayal was the wake-up call for me to know finally after 46.95 years that I have both the character and integrity and the words to be in my purpose.
That was a huge revelation for me. It was like you get these little nuggets in your life, you’re just like, “This is what’s been holding me back. This is the place where I demean myself. This is the place where I make myself small,” and the question is, “Did I co-create this betrayal so I could learn this fucking thing? Is this what I needed to do? Is this my master acting in the most crazy way for me to learn this life lesson? That I don’t need anyone else to speak my purpose?” I think it’s true. Step one, feel the feelings. Step two, look at how you co-created it. Step three, look at the benefit and the beauty of the betrayal. Every negative emotion you can have can be transmuted into a life lesson. Every experience you deem bad can be transmuted into growth, and I’m not saying this is easy and sometimes this is hard. My father is dealing with the cancer in his body and it’s affecting my mother. It’s affecting me. It’s affecting my sister. It’s affecting the rest of my family. What is the lesson in there? What are the negative stimuli and how do I transmute that into my power and my beauty?
This betrayal sucks. This betrayal could cost me $25,000. I am not fond about spending $25,000 on a deal that I thought I had handled, because I spent a lot of money handling my side of the street and my business partners don’t seem to be showing up for their side of the street. This could cost me $25,000, but is $25,000 worth me sitting in the angst of that betrayal? The answer is no. No amount of money, no amount of what people have “done” to me is worth me sitting in the self-torture around the betrayal. I am going to use every single stimuli that happens to me in this lifetime to empower myself, to better myself, and you want to learn to cope with betrayal. Feel it, see it, work it, and use it to empower yourself. That is my methodology for dealing and coping with betrayal.
There’s a book that I’m reading called Give and Take. The author’s name is called Adam Grant. It’s a business book, but it’s fucking awesome, and here’s the concept behind Give and Take. Give and Take says that there are three types of people in the world. There are the givers, there are the matchers and there are the takers. The givers are the ones who give and they give without expect of response. They’re the pay it forward people. They’re people who give, they mentor, they give away their time and their energy. Then there are the matchers. The matchers are the one that say, “If I do this for you, you do this for me. That’s cool. It’s equitable.” Then there’s the takers. There are the takers in the world who grab and they’re always thinking about themselves. We all know people in all three types. You might be thinking, “What am I?” I’m a giver. It’s in my innate ability. Every aspect of reading this book is self-affirming that I’m a giver.
In the scale of economics, the bottom of the economic scales are givers. People who make the least amount of money are givers and the people at the top of the scale, they’re givers too. In the middle are the matchers and the takers, the matchers usually on top of takers. The givers are at the top, the givers are at the bottom. The whole trick in life is to find out are you a selfless giver? Are you giving and giving away your energy and losing yourself in the giving? I did that in this business deal to them. Are you the giver at the top and you’re being smart and mindful and cautious and aware and being at the top of your game? Giving is the way that makes me the happiest. I’m the happiest when I give it away, but I’m also miserable when I give it away without consciousness. This life lesson for me, part two, is allowing what’s inside of me out so I can be calm, clear, and never put myself in the situation again and never depend on someone else to be my voice. That is this week’s rant.
I’m going to bring Megan and Brave. First off, I want to talk about where I met these awesome people was in Boulder. They were participating in this authentic leadership summit that I was with. I met Megan first and pretty much was impressed from the first moment of talking with her and how clear and how powerful and then she said, “There’s my partner,” and Brave walked by and I was like, “That guy is big,” not just physically but energetically big. I had the pleasure to sit, talk and engage with them. Hear their story and impressed by who they are and what they’re doing in the world. I’m excited to have you on the show. We’re going to have you share as experts on the guest star level about how you guys cope with betrayal. First off, why don’t you tell me a little bit about yourselves? What do you do? What’s your format to deal with clients? How do you help people?
My background is in massage therapy and I brought a lot of that into these relating practices, circling and authentic relating as well as tools from the ManKind Project, developing emotional literacy in men and tools for effective communication. Getting into that shadow work has been my journey and I brought that into our relationship and us dialing into shadow ultimately we dove right in with betrayal. Our relationship has been a journey of shadow work and seeing the darkness and then seeing the light that comes out of it. That’s what we bring to couples in our circling practice, in our relating practices. What’s here? What are these dark spaces? What are these dark places and how can they serve our life? How can they serve your light and your growth and your connection? That’s what we aim to do in our circling and coaching practice and we bring these tools of circling and authentic relating into their relationship to help improve the connection and the dynamic between the couple.
What’s your definition of betrayal? How do you know when your couples are feeling betrayal?
For me it’s breaking trust and lying is an example from our relationship where I noticed betrayal. Anytime someone looks out for their better interest and not for yours and it feels like a violation of sorts, especially when there’s an agreement broken or something like that.
For me betrayal is going against my own integrity or going against the agreement and being out of integrity. If I’m not showing up, if I made an agreement to Megan to be honest even if it was implicit which most relationships are like, “This is what we’re going to do,” and not explicit. Then it’s like then I get into my own self-protection patterns. That limits will get in my way and then I’ll lie or I’ll create mistrust and that’s the breach of integrity that leads to her feelings of her betrayal and that hurts me as well.
What you demonstrated was an important piece as Megan talked about when someone else lies and someone else breaks agreement and then what you demonstrated was how you break your own agreements, because betrayal goes both ways. If the other person breaks an agreement, but also when we break our own agreements like, “I have my boundary and I’ll let you bypass my boundary. I’m going to feel betrayal from you, but it’s me not honoring my own self.”
You have a couple that you’re coaching. What have you seen? What is the motivation for people to betray? What have you noticed in your practice about people?
For the most part, motivation comes from insecurities or shadows. Places that we hide, repress, deny, old fears that are linked to past behavior such as expressing a truth and then being ridiculed for it or being shamed for it. When the opportunity comes up to express the truth again, often it’s almost a matter of survival to withhold the truth or lie or do some betrayal behavior to save yourself and to protect yourself.
How much of this is protection and protecting our inner children, our little selves? We see this in clients all the time where they’re testing. Sometimes when the opportunity to be truthful or transparent and reveal their experience comes up, they choose to go into that protection mode and test the waters, only reveal a little bit and withhold some, and that’s a form of betrayal. It’s that lie of omission and then what’s next. Those lies can build and compound on each other all because they’re trying to protect themselves from the fear, the guilt and the shame typically. That’s what I see the most of.
To me withholding is lying. That’s the biggest thing and that’s the cancer of relationship. You’re coaching a couple and you notice there’s betrayal and they’re protecting themselves or protecting those inner children. What are your steps? What do you recommend for them to cope with their betrayal? What are your methodologies?
The first step I notice is what is the feeling? What can you do with the feeling of that betrayal and then take responsibility for that feeling? Knowing that this is my feeling, she’s not making me feel something or the client isn’t being made to feel something by their partner, what are they feeling being in this and then taking responsibility for it. That responsibility is a huge first step.
Taking that moment to pause and check in with yourself. It helps to have tools for learning how to be embodied and focus on sensations so you’re coming out of your head and pausing to see where it lands in your almost somatic experience of like, “My chest is tight. I have aches in my belly. Where is this hitting me?” Because when we bypass that, we go straight to more of a heady response and mental and cognitive response. That’s easier to go off into a judicial like, “I had been wronged,” or whatever and instead of focusing on your own experience with it,
It’s like the story of inertia shows up. The whole story has its own inertia, has its own weight. If we go into our head, we don’t get to be in the sensation and the experience of it that’s informing the betrayal. The next step is that naming process, being with it, what can we name it and then hear each other in it.
Also focusing on where it might have shown up before, “This is painful. Why is this so painful? Where has this happened to me in my life before?” and linking it to old wounds. That’s that inertia piece of like, “This is coming in like a freight train. Even though it’s this one when you were talking about micro betrayals or skills, “Why does this feel like a freight train when the actual physical or objective evidence isn’t quite as extreme?” Linking it backwards is helpful as well.
When that happens, I can hear if I’m truly being open to my partner, and this is where the third party comes in where the coaches, therapists, mediators, facilitators come in. Great friends are awesome for being in that space between them saying, “What’s there? Are you hearing your partner?” If the one can hear the other and say, “I hear,” that’s actually you’re protecting this child, this eight-year-old boy who had these nightmarish incidents. I can see how you’d want to protect yourself and we can validate each other in our experience, validate the truth of our experience, then we can have a lot more compassion for each other and move forward with more care for each other and for ourselves.
Do you have a story of success around betrayal where it looked like, “This is unsurpassable,” and then they did work through their betrayal? People like the stories. Do you have one in mind that you could share with us?
I’d like to share a personal. Within the first month of us dating, we were dating long distance and I was living in Seattle and Brave in Austin and he came to visit me. We spent a week together in the honeymoon phase of absolutely lovey-dovey. The next trip that he came to see me on the first day, we reconnected in that same space, loving and twitterpated. By the end of the day he said, “I have something to reveal to you. I can’t hold it in any longer,” and he had something he had lied to me about. He broke an agreement that was pretty significant. We were in an open relationship so it felt irrelevant to me like, “Why would you lie about something when we have this?” We’re setting ourselves up for success for complete open exchanges and it was super painful in that moment. For me, I hadn’t done a lot of my own shadow work. I hadn’t heard of authentic relating and circling. For me I was like, “I feel completely violated and I’m out. I don’t want to be in this relationship. I wanted to cut ties and move on.” It felt ridiculous and I didn’t know how much gold there was in staying in it and learning about myself more deeply. Why it hurt so intensely and learning about him more deeply. That was almost like a missed beautiful relationship and now we’ve been working through years’ worth of similar shadow work and things and I’m so grateful that I didn’t cut ties in that very first instance.
A lot of what I see in other people, my clients, why I can spot it so good is because it happened for me. My own wounds of needing to be seen, needing to get affection and affirmation from others. It was a big piece of my growth and I was needing now less than the time that I met Megan, but it was still present and then it was alive when we were long distance. Breaking this agreement was also part of sabotaging our relationship. I won’t have to work, grow or go through the journey of being in this connection, which is the most challenging thing. For me it’s one of our favorite sayings is the wounds of relationship can only be healed in relationship. I put myself out there and said, “I fucked up. I broke one of our agreements around sex and I kept it from you. We’ve had sex and I feel awful. I feel so much regret and I’m sorry.” I laid myself out there, as scary as it was, as vulnerable as it was. She was asking me the leave and I basically would have slept on the streets in Seattle in October in the rain with my dog and I was like, “Here it is. I’m sorry,” and me putting myself out there and I’m on vulnerable state, give her the permission and asking for it like, “I want to be in this connection with you,” gave her the chance to feel in to that compassion for herself. I remember so vividly that she slid her hands across the couch and right when I was thinking that she was going to kick me out. I was like, “I’m fucking sorry,” falling. I went nuts and was sobbing so hard. It was so intense for me to receive that acceptance in the depth of the betrayal, and I was like, “You’re willing to be in this with me. You’re willing to be in this hurt, in this shadow behavior, I will go to the depths of hell to clean this out and be here for you and be in this relationship.” That was the testament to commitment, committed to a journey, committed to a process and to working through our own wounds so that we can have rich life and connection. That commitment is the first step. It’s the willingness to commit the experience and that’s the essence of our story.
I’ve had similar things in my life. I didn’t sleep in the streets of Seattle, but beyond that definitely the same feeling. Brave, I understand the motivation for the betrayal. What was the motivation for withholding? Then to you Megan, what was the thought process in your head to allow him to come back? What was the thing that had you slide your hands across the couch? How did you forgive him in that moment or accept him in that moment or whatever word it is to open yourself back up to move past that disconnection?
It was a combination of shame and denial that anything would be wrong. Denial that I was wrong or denial of I’m not doing something wrong. I’m trying to avoid the guilt, avoid the impact, and it was just an avoidance mechanism and then ultimately avoiding the shame that I knew I still feel. I didn’t want to get into that.
The willingness to it feels like something clicks into place, and I’ve experienced this quite a bit where the fork in the road is, “Do I want to sit in this discomfort and feel powerless? Do I want to withdraw from the connection, cut it off and say it’s protecting myself from the world? These things are going to happen out in the world. Do I want to lean into them and learn from them and understand them more fully?” In that moment it was like, “If I cut this connection off, what am I getting out of this? I’m not going to see him more fully. I’m not going to understand his process. It’s probably going to be filed away as some other violation that I haven’t processed. I had been in a seven-year relationship with some form of betrayal and it ended abruptly without discussion, processing and learning from the experience. It was beautiful to have this opportunity to go into it and recognize what parts of it were mine and what parts of it were his and assuming positive regard in there. Having compassion for his little boy that feels shameful. That was a beautiful moment for me, a huge growth point, reaching across the couch and holding his hand in that moment.
Change your whole life and change the lives of so many others. Brave, when you were in your, “I’m fine. This is my right to do rape and pillage.” and then some part of you is like, “This is affecting someone I care about,” and your willingness to move from that point to that point, that’s rare. You’re willing to do that was a rare, special and important. I want to acknowledge that’s not a normal thing for people to do, to cope. On the flip side, just as beautiful Megan when you, stuck in our pride, we hold grudges and hold grudges to our detriment and we end up alone. We’re like, “Why are we alone?” You’re alone with your grudge and your willingness to be like, “He’s a human being. I don’t like this, but I accept you as a human being.” That’s a hugely mature, powerful act for one person to do to another.
I’m going to answer this question and then I’d like you guys to add anything if you like. Violet asks, “If a person who betrayed doesn’t recognize or own their experience and says you’re being too sensitive, how can you stay and heal? This was with my teacher, not my partner.” There’s a term called gas-lighting and I did a show on this and you might want to look it up. That’s a form of gas-lighting. Gas-lighting basically means when another person invalidates your feelings. That’s a classic case of Violet feels betrayed, the teacher is sitting on their pedestal saying, “You’re too sensitive.” They’re saying you’re too sensitive which is not acknowledging her feelings. The first thing I want to say Violet, if you feel betrayed, your feeling of betrayal is right.
If your teacher can’t acknowledge that, then A) You need to have a straight talk with them or B) Find a new teacher. I wouldn’t want to learn from someone who gas-lit me. I’ve done in the past and I’ve reversed my conversation like, “When I said that you’re too sensitive. That’s a rude thing for me to say. I apologize,” but your feelings are right. The second step is if you’re looking for them to provide something to you that may or may not happen. It’s not the circumstance, it’s you. I don’t expect anything from my business partners at this point. I might have to pay that $25,000 and live with it. I’m not expecting a thing, but I can do my own internal work to gain the power of the stimuli to make my life better. How about you guys, if you have any other thoughts?
What you said that if you feel betrayed, that’s right. Your experience is valid and knowing that is always something you can carry with you. If someone’s unwilling to validate that for you or go into the processing of it or disgusted or share their own vulnerability in it, maintaining that sense of integrity around your own experience and then maybe taking it elsewhere, finding someone who can hear you and look at it with you. You might be alone in that but the quote, “The wounds of relationship can only be healed in relationship,” it doesn’t have to be that particular relationship. Keep going out into the world and engaging in that vulnerable space with others and you will maintain that sense of integrity around what your experience is and also loosen to open to others more. The biggest thing for me in there is the sense of powerlessness. If you start to question your experience just because someone else isn’t validating it for you, that’s when it gets scary.
To me, there is a third step of create your own value. Violet, if you’re valuing yourself and you’re valuing your experience and you believe that what you said or your feelings are valid, then I would invite you to enroll help if you want to maintain or build a rapport or even invite in a little bit of conflict to help get clarity. Bring in a mediator, bring in another teacher or somebody objective and say, “This is what I’m experiencing. This is what I’m wanting. Can you acknowledge or identify the validity of my claim and can this lead to our healing?” That’s a possibility. You might not get it, but you have every damn right to ask for it. Ask for what you want and get the value that you need and desire.
Thanks much for being on the show guys. I appreciate it. It was wonderful hanging out with you and I still want to make it to Austin. We definitely need to hang out and you can meet Morgan. Thank you.
It was a great show. Thank you, Violet, for asking the vulnerable question. For more shows, please visit us at TuffLove.Live. I’ve got my mailing list. I’d love to build out on my mailing list and send it to your friends, your enemies, your relatives, your brothers, your sisters, tell them to sign up for my mailing list because it’ll add to their lives and maybe they’ll get a clue. Let’s get more people on my mailing list. For more shows, you can also listen to iTunes. If you’d like to leave us a review, I’d be totally grateful for that. Thanks so much. Go forth. Be real. Take care of yourselves. Look at your betrayal. Find that power inside of you.
Thanks so much for being on the show with us. What a great show around the concept betrayal. Thank you Megan and Brave for coming on the show and telling us about your own stories and about on the streets of Seattle to win and maintain the love and it’s truly amazing. If you’d like to make a donation to the show, you can support us by visiting Patreon.com/TuffLove. All the details can also be found, including my mailing list, which I talked about at TuffLove.Live. I care about you. I love you. Go forth and face the day.